So what happened to Vale?

[Gazza]

Valentino Rossi. Motorcycle icon. The best rider of all time? What has happened? How come Stoner is the only rider able to conquer the Ducati?

Remember how he was able to swap from the RC211V and immediately win on the uncompetitive Yamaha M1. Why can't he do that on the Ducati?

Here's my view..........

The Yamaha M1 was before the days of electronic traction control Rossi was a god when throttle control made the difference. Just as in F1, where the Red Bull is clearly supreme, nobody else has can beat them. Yes, Vettel is a brilliant driver, but what about Hamilton and Alonso? They just can't compete against the superior technology. In order to make the racing more attractive the FIA continually change the rules to even out the class, particularly on the budget front, as those with the biggest pockets can buy the most technology.

Stoner, to his credit was able to master the Ducati and despite being a tosser at times, he has to be given credit for that. But don't let the recent domination of Casey and Jorge take away any of Valentino's greatness. Not only was he a legend with the throttle, he was also a legend as a personality and he has done as much to bring motorcycle racing to the forefront as the great Barry Sheene did.

He had an opportunity to go to F1 and decided to stick with the bikes, despite already knowing what was coming. When he's had the best machinery (Honda RC211V and subsequently the Yamaha) he hasn't shirked the challenge of riding a less competitive bike. In fact he deliberately left Honda because it was too easy. I also believe he intentionally qualified low down the order on the Honda, so as to make more of a race of it. How many other riders/drivers can you imagine that would do either of those two things?

Vale - Still Number 1 in my mind.

Discuss.....

[Akrapovic]

I agree. He is the face of motogp and has done wonders for the sport.

Pity he is struggling a bit on the duke though.

Gotta fly as I have a meeting to go to.

Be an interesting thread though.

[erin]

Vale will always be Number 1

Give him time, i bet he masters the Ducati yet

[Gazza]

Vale will always be Number 1

Give him time, i bet he masters the Ducati yet

It's not so much him mastering the Ducati, although he will get faster as they develop the Ducati to suit his riding style. The reason the Honda is so quick this year is due to the drive it has out of corners. No matter how good Vale is on the Ducati, unless Ducati can match the electronic control of the Honda, he'll be hard pressed to beat them.

Mugello is an extremely fast circuit, one where that drive is not so important and hence the competitiveness of the Yamahas. Upcoming Sachsenring is a far slower circuit and you can expect the Hondas to be well in front. Dani usually goes very well there, but I'm not sure how his shoulder will hold up. I hope Marco has a good showing. His results this year do not reflect his pace.

[coops]

Vale always been a racing god, will always be a racing god!!!

[Big Little Dave]

It's because Vale is racin Stoner's 2010 Ducati and everyone one else is on the new 2011 800's, next year should be better as it is a new bike and will be set up to the way he wants it

[coullstar]

I actually think Stoner is now the better rider. At his best Rossi was better but not anymore. I think he has lot a bit of confidence. The bikes are not helping Rossi but Stoner was quick on a Honda as well when he first came into MotoGP, he just kept falling off.

[baldy]

I think you will find he is testing the 2012 Chassis NOW and there is not much of the 2010 bike left ( not that its making much of a difference) .......I only hope when they go to the 1000cc bikes next year they remove some of the traction control and other electronic "helpers" or watching the racing next year is going to be really boring .Im all for making the sport safer but at the same time im sure most people would prefer to watch real racing.Rossi would then show us really how to ride a bike .There was mention of Ducati lowering the power on the bike to make it more user freindly to Hayden and Stoner last year.My question is why do they not increase it back again .I agree the Hondas are much quicker on the up shift .There was an enquiry after one of the races which was looking into possible ilegal gearbox ??

[Coddy]

I think that for a rider who has avoided injury pretty much until he broke his leg last year, the leg break has had a effect on him.

But for me, the biggest issue he has had, is the lack of testing. When he went to Yamaha, he went from the best bike, H-onda, to the worst bike, Yamaha. Over the winter, he and lets give credit, where credits due, Jeremy Burgess sorted the bike out. First race on the bike. Won.
Over the years, the Yamaha was the best bike bar far. Not the quickest engine, but by far best handling. Now he has moved, from Yamaha, to what would be an ill handling bike (Ducati).
If there had been more the same testing in the winter, i have no doubt that Rossi and Burgess would have sorted the bike right out. The key in this team, is Burgess as much as Rossi. Look at how many titles a rider with Burgess as race engineer has won. Gardner, Doohan, Rossi. Not a bad list for the last 15-20 years.
Now, what they are doing is setting things up for 2012. Is this the right decision. Yes. Stoner is going to win the title this year.
When Rossi and Burgess are working on this 2012 bike (chassis), with the 800 engine, qualifying, makes no differance to them. It makes no odds if they qualify 13th. Rossi has always been a shizzle starter anyway. What they will be working on is race set up, not 1 lap. He will continue to qualify low, but he will climb up from 6th place finishes. He needs to start beating Dovi.
Lorenzo, Stoner and Simoncelli are the top 3 this year, and he needs to get the gap to them closed. This they will do, but they need the maximum laps they can get during a race weekend. Win this season, doubt it, unless in the wet. Consistant top 3 finishes, very probable.
The problem with the Ducati is well documented as being the frame, or lack of a proper frame, by using the airbox as a stressed part of the bike. Their is not enough flex in the chassis, as this part is too short, compared to the length of a conventional frame. Ducati and Rossi / Burgess will need to decide whether to continue with this, or does Rossi have enough clout to tell them to poke it, and go more conventional frame.

Regarding Stoner. There are too many w4nkers out there, who dismiss him as a whinger. Bollox. He is a class act. Yes he is a girner, but he is a chip off the old block, a new Doohan. Like Doohan, he is not interested in all the pish that goes along with the racing, like advertising, meet and greets etc. He wants to go there, ride the bike, and go home.
It also shows how shizzle the Ducati was. Not shock news as look at the other riders who have tried to ride the bike, world champion winning riders, who have done nothing with it. Hodgeson, Haydon, Caparossi, Melandri,

[steve]

Well said Baldy , it's a well known fact the works Ducati team have been testing next years bike all seaon and they have been testing parts on this years bike , this is probably the reason why Vale an Hayden have used so many engines already ,

There is probably lots of reasons why Moaner seems to be the only one to gel with the Ducati , it's very foolish to think he has more talent than Vale simply because Vale Isn't doing as well as expected this year , remember Vale was still suffering from his shoulder injury and remember he is taller than Moaner too and I Imagine that causes allsorts of problems in the set up of a race bike

I wonder if the Honda would be so good now had Vale not raced it and been involved with it's initial development many years ago

When Moaner has as many world titles as Vale he can call himself a true champion

[coullstar]

Whats with all this moaner nonsense. Have you seen him ride a bike in person? He is flatout all the time, I have ahell of a lot of respect for the boy.

I actually hate how everybody thinks Rossi can do no wrong and that any other rider is not up to it. I was at Donnington when Stoner wiped the arse with everyone all weekend in the wet and dry and on the victory lap all he got was abuse. Pathetic, he has more talent in his left toe then everyone on here combined. There is more to life than Rossi and thats coming from someone who has a Rossi rep helmet.

[steve]

Folk call him moaner cos he likes a good moan funnily enough

I'm not doubting he has got talent but he has only won one world championship , when things don't go his way the teddy bear is out the pram big time an he blames everyone but himself , in my opinion he needs to grow up an learn to loose with some dignity , he had a face like thunder on when his team mate beat him on Sunday

I reckon alot of people like Vale as he has a great personality off the bike and he is a joy to watch on the bike , you don't see him chuckin hissy fits when he doesn't win now do you !

[Gazza]

Folk call him moaner cos he likes a good moan funnily enough

I'm not doubting he has got talent but he has only won one world championship , when things don't go his way the teddy bear is out the pram big time an he blames everyone but himself , in my opinion he needs to grow up an learn to loose with some dignity , he had a face like thunder on when his team mate beat him on Sunday

I reckon alot of people like Vale as he has a great personality off the bike and he is a joy to watch on the bike , you don't see him chuckin hissy fits when he doesn't win now do you !

There's no doubt that Casey has huge talent and despite the traction control you still regularly see him sliding the bike about. He's also a fantastic rider in the wet. His overall win ratio is very high too along with Dani. But as Steve says, they both get a lot of grief (including from me) regards their attitude. People don't like excuses, riders who blame the bike or injury for their failure.

I think the way that Dani ignored Marco's handshake at the weekend was pretty bad. Particularly as I believe he had much to play in the accident with Marco. The TV camera angles are bad, but pictures taken by photographers at other locations show he had enough room to go under Marco, but had out braked himself in order to defend the corner. This is ok, because that's what racing is all about. Just don't complain when it doesn't work. Certainly Marco had no plan of a collision either, it could just as easily have been him in hospital.

Coddy has a few good points above, but I would say that the development of the Yamaha over the winter that Rossi and Burgess moved there wasn't quite so much. When he beat Max (Billy-Ray) and Sete in that first ride, it was still clearly a slower bike. What he did do was out brake them on the inside into corners and block their racing lines. He got away with it (unlike at Jerez when he took out Sete). Jeremy gave the Yamaha it's excellent handling (particularly under braking) which turned the bike into a race winner over the years.

Whatever edge Vale may or may not have lost due to age and injury, my original statement still holds for me. Put them all on bikes without traction control and Vale would be out in front every week. A good indicator of a riders true class (particularly throttle control) is their performance in the wet. Other than the pigs ear he made on one corner at Jerez with Casey (up until when he was going extremely well), Vale has been pretty sharp in the wet this year. Even after the fall, he still came 5th at Jerez.

One rider I feel really sorry for this year is Toni Elias. That man has far more class than the bike he's been given. Moto2 is probably the most difficult category and his class there was outstanding. He's also agreat rider to watch.

[steve]

Well said Gazza , i really hope Ben Spies can make it right to the top in Motogp as I think a few of the prima donnas in that class could learn a thing or 3 from him about how they should behave in victory and defeat , I could have sworn I saw him gettin his elbow down at Mugello ! The lad is a class act in my opinion

[Gazza]

Ben Spies is another extremely talented rider. He's had some bad luck at the start of this season, but his class is now starting to show through. He's also a very magnanimous character and shows that you don't have to be so 'focussed' that you turn into an arsehole. That's what the arseholes usually blame it on anyway.

I'd like to see him become world champion to dispell the myth that WSB riders are not up to the same level as GP riders. The trouble with many WSB riders coming to GPs is they are thrown in on an uncompetitive bike and never get a chance to really show before they're booted back to WSB. GP winners who've been beaten in WSB, depsite being on works machinery is a good example of the true skills of the WSB riders. Horses for courses.

[steve]

I've noticed an similar threads to this on here and other sites not much ever gets said about pedrosa , I'm sure he is now in his 7th season at Honda an yet no world title ! He was brought in as Vales replacement but he really hasn't lived up to all the hype in my opinion , surely Honda should show him the door an bring in fresh blood

[missile]

Rossi is undeniably a great rider but it seems he is past his best. Maybe time to hang up his leathers?

[Coddy]

Regarding Gazza's posts on Dani and Elais.

I don't think Dani is strong enough, physically, to ride the Moto Gp bikes. He should have a big advantage in braking, as well as acceleration. He must be 30kg's lighter than Simoncelli, but yet, Pedrosa very rarely out breaks anyone. He doesn't have the physical strength for the carbon braked Moto Gp bikes. Would be easy favourite to win Moto2, which is more suited for him. The new Dani, is coming. Marques will eventually replace him (Repsol - Spanish connection), but again, probably to small for the Moto Gp. Would also need to do 1 season on a satelite bike, as not allowed to ride a factory bike in the first season.

Agree'd with the Elias comments. The bike he is on, must have next to no H-onda support, and they have a poor budget. When he lost the ride 2 years ago, he was right in what he said. "There are people keeping their rides that have won nothing". At least he was in the mix. Go get a top ride in WSB.

Not to sure about the limited effect Rossi and Burgess had on the Yamaha over winter testing though. I think it was them, probably more Burgess, who got Yamaha to change to the crossplane crank, and also to have the crank spinning in reverse, to counteract the gyroscopic forces of the wheels. They also had the best electronic package in later years, yet Rossi moans about electronics. Yes, he is one of the few who has ridden the bikes with limited electronics, and one of the few who would handle a bike with limited electonics, but he is the one who has won the most with them. The top electronic guys quit Yamaha at the end of the 2009 season, and went to H-onda. Wonder why they have the best bike now.

Crutchlow has also done excellent. I was one of the people who thought he doesn't deserve to be in Moto Gp, but he is doing well.

Dovi. Just not quite up with the top guys yet, and i don't think he will get the chance to be either. If Simoncelli stops crashing, 2nd half of the season, he will move upto the Repsol bike, probably at Dovi's expense. Probably swap teams.

Edwards. Riding better than ever, but getting on a bit. Don't think he will go to a lesser Moto Gp team. WSB or retirement coming soon. Like him, says it as it is. Needs a warning before a live tv interview, and still gets the odd swear word in. Must be the time he lived in Banchory (heard from a few people he stayed there for a year in the 70's) coming out.

[Gazza]

Valention's own story of his years at Yamaha

Part 1



Part 2

[coullstar]

People don't like excuses, riders who blame the bike or injury for their failure.

You mean like Rossi with his shoudler.

I used to be a Rossi or nothing fan but have not really followed any of them in recent years. Ulitimately he does have the most talent but I'll be honest I couldnt care who wins now so long as there is a good race. Id rather watch the Moto2 or 125's at the moment.

[missile]

People don't like excuses, riders who blame the bike or injury for their failure.

You mean like Rossi with his shoudler.

I used to be a Rossi or nothing fan but have not really followed any of them in recent years. Ulitimately he does have the most talent but I'll be honest I couldnt care who wins now so long as there is a good race. Id rather watch the Moto2 or 125's at the moment.

I agree with you there.
Rossi has more personality than Stoner, but I really don't give a flying f..k whether Rossi is a nice guy / or a light footed fellow . I am only interested in watching close racing. Often it is more exciting watching those dicing mid pack or the "supporting" races. BSB races have been entertaining this year.

I don't understand why we expect sporting heroes to be TV personalities. Listening to Andy Murray is about as interesting as watching paint dry, but so what? Nadal has far more personality than Djokovic but it did not help him on the court.

[Gazza]

People don't like excuses, riders who blame the bike or injury for their failure.

You mean like Rossi with his shoudler.

All riders suffer injuries at times and will naturally complain that the injury affects performance, which is justifiable. My comment above was aimed at riders who do it perpetually and IMHO Vale doesn't fall into that category. Similarly the machinery.

I really don't give a flying f..k whether Rossi is a nice guy / or a light footed fellow . I am only interested in watching close racing.

You're right. I think most folk feel the same way. But having a dislike for a particular rider does make the sport more interesting. Nothing worse than watching any sport where you don't give a shizzle who wins.

[Gazza]

Rossi is undeniably a great rider but it seems he is past his best. Maybe time to hang up his leathers?

Considering he has won two of the last 3 world championships and last year his title challange was off due to a broken leg, I would say it's a bit early to say that. Despite the broken leg and shoulder injury he still managed a creditable third place overall. He won't win this year, but let's not expect another M1 fairytale.

He's had good opportunties to pull out, to both Rallying and F1. He even had the chance to go to Ferrari after running very close to Schumachers testing times. So I would imagine the passion is still strong.

Rossi beats McRae

Rossi tested the Ferrari Formula 1 car in 2006 on January 31, February 1, and February 2 at Valencia. The first test saw Rossi spin out on the damp track into the gravel trap, ending his day. On the second day, he posted the ninth fastest time of fifteen drivers, approximately one second behind Michael Schumacher, who himself was third fastest. Rossi lapped faster than seasoned drivers Red Bull Racing's Mark Webber and David Coulthard and Toyota F1's Jarno Trulli. On the final day of testing, Rossi was just a little more than a half second behind Schumacher's best time. Schumacher hailed Rossi as having immense talent and said he would be perfectly capable of moving to Formula One and being competitive immediately.

To be even close to McRae and Schumacher shows what an exceptionable character he is.

I'd rather watch the Moto2 or 125's at the moment.

You're right. We don't see a lot of this these days...

Laguna Seca 2008

And when you do, some poor b@stard gets a ride through penalty.

[Dave]

And when you do, some poor b@stard gets a ride through penalty.

[Gazza]

A couple of interesting viewpoints from http://www.crash.net

Why haven't Rossi and Ducati clicked this year, and why has he been off the pace of the ever dominant Hondas?

It's a question that doesn't have a straight or easy answer. In Valencia 2010, Rossi got on board a brand new Ducati. An all carbon chassis bike, using the technology Ducati had used through the 2010 season of having the engine as a stress mount to the whole design.

The feeling that Rossi got back from the all carbon chassis was a very vague one, especially from the front of the bike on the entry to corners. Over the winter Rossi had surgery on his shoulder, so by the time the Sepang test came around in February, he was around 85% fit.

Rossi rode an almost identical bike that he had ridden in Valencia, in Sepang, but with minor adjustments to his riding position. He finished the test +0.7 back of Stoner, which didn't seem too far considering it was his second attempt and he still wasn't 100% fit.

It is widely known by now that Jeremy Burgess and Rossi both underestimated the severity of the problems with the Ducati, chiefly because Stoner had done such a good job of hiding them through the whole year of 2010.

For Rossi at the moment, the big problem is just getting the bike turned. The other factories, mainly Honda and Yamaha, are arriving at the apex of each corner at full lean, with the maximum angle possible, meaning that they can hold a tighter line through the middle of the corner and onto the exit. Rossi on the other hand is only getting to full lean with the maximum angle at the apex of each corner, rather than before it.

This means that to be able to drive off each corner with the same speed and commitment as the top boys, he has to take a much wider line through each corner. A clear and obvious example of this was in Brno.

Through turn 8 and turn 9, Rossi had to take a much wider entrance into the corner to drive off it quick enough, giving Bautista huge closing speed during the entry and middle of the corner.

Ducati have worked tirelessly through the year bringing updates, modifications, full chassis and even half chassis to racetracks around the world for Rossi. In Aragon we saw the debut of the “half ” aluminium chassis, which had an aluminium front part, still using the engine as a stress mount, and a carbon fibre swing arm.

Rossi said that it made almost no difference, and the trouble with the front persisted, even causing him to have a small crash off the front over the weekend. In Aragon, to allow for the use of the new chassis, Rossi had to take his seventh engine of the year which meant he had to start from the pit lane. The seventh engine was taken because the mounting points on the aluminium part of the chassis were different to the original carbon one, meaning he couldn't run the sixth engine he had previously been using.

The comparison between Rossi and Stoner on the Ducati has been brought up throughout the year. On a simple level, Stoner is a throttle man and Rossi and braking man. To brake late and hard, you need feel in the front. The very problem plaguing Rossi all year.

On a more detailed level, Casey has a “rougher” riding style than Rossi, and could lose the front and technically crash up to three times a lap during a race according to his data. Rossi just doesn't ride like that. Stoner will ride around a problem and not fix it, Rossi will fix the problem.

Ducati and Rossi have, and are continuing to work towards the front of the pack. Make no mistake, they have not given up, that is 100% unquestionable. Returning to the 1000cc bikes next year will play into Rossi's favour, allowing a more diverse riding and set up style.

Jeremy Burgess said; “We have to set some sort of time when we need to crest the summit and the summit for me is the world championship in 2012. We have to be up to speed in the pre - season testing and challenging for the podium from the first race of next year.” They are fighting words, words that both him, Rossi and all of the Ducati crew are working solidly towards.

With a new 'delta box' aluminium chassis to develop, the first test of 2012 at Sepang will be the most important day since Rossi joined the Italian manufacturer.

Time will tell if 'The Doctor' can perform a successful operation on the GP12.

And

Nine World Championships, 105 Grand Prix wins, a thirst for victory than shames even the keenest rookie, and a reputation as one of the greatest riders in history. So why can't Valentino Rossi win on the Ducati Desmosedici, and what's next if things don't improve?

It would appear that the Ducati has a fundamental design flaw, and that is not the carbon fibre chassis, but poor balance and incorrect weight distribution. It simply doesn't load the front tyre through the corners in the way Rossi wants. Ducati's constant upgrades throughout last season, allied to Rossi's development skills have failed to produce any tangible gains.

Ducati rolled out a revised bike with an aluminium twin spar chassis at the post season test at Valencia. Any hopes that this would provide a quick fix quickly faded as Rossi's best time at the end of the test was still over 1.5 seconds from the factory Hondas. The new bike is clearly in need of developments, and is very much a work in progress, but the bottom line is that the gap to the front is exactly the same as it was at the same test 12 months ago.

Rossi told the Ducati Corse website that new bike is an improvement on the GP11, but the same problems remain.

“This bike is nicer to ride than the 800. You can say that it's improved in some respects, while in others, it's very similar to the other bike, but that's exactly what we expected. The engine seems to be pretty good already. On the other hand, I'm a little slower in mid-corner, and we also have to try to improve rear grip because for now, we're not able to get the power to the ground and take full advantage of it. But it's not bad for a first taste, and the really important thing is that we can work more freely, changing the bike's balance, the weight distribution, the measurements.”

February's test at Sepang will be crucial. If the GP12 is on the pace then there will be cause for optimism. If Rossi continues to struggle, then he will almost certainly be considering his options.

Valentino Rossi is far from finished. He has not become a bad rider, nor forgotten how to ride a motorcycle. However, with his legacy at risk, if the GP12 doesn't allow him to regularly challenge for wins, it's inconceivable that he will sign for a third term with the Bologna outfit.

Rossi has already ruled out retirement. He told GPOne.com “If things don't get better, I still wouldn't consider retirement. I want to keep racing for a few more years at least.”

Should the required progress not be forthcoming at Ducati, a return to Yamaha looks unlikely. A rumour that surfaced at Laguna Seca suggests he could switch to a one man team running a factory Honda.

This would represent a huge climb down for Rossi, going back to the factory he left in 2003. But it would also put him on the same bike as Casey Stoner for the first time in their careers.

MotoGP needs this. As Stoner's star continues to rise and Rossi's falters, a head to head battle between the two would leave no excuses and nowhere to hide for either man. Undoubtedly, both would relish the prospect.

If Rossi claims a tenth championship, his legacy would be sealed. If he fails then his reputation will be tainted. One thing is certain. With his insatiable desire to compete, Rossi won't go without a fight.